My Mom is extremely religious and the best description of my beliefs is a skeptic. That doesn't stop us from having many back and forth conversations around religion. About a year ago we had a conversation about Hell and she sent me an email with the attached from a mailing she gets from a newsletter called 'Eternal Life With Jesus'.
Eternal Life With JesusRevelation 21:1-5
Some people question whether hell actually exists. They wonder, How could someone in heaven have no sadness while realizing loved ones are suffering eternal punishment?Humanly speaking, it’s hard to understand. We know that in the afterlife, those who have rejected Jesus will mourn (Matt. 13:41-42). But Scripture makes it clear that eternity in Christ’s presence will be pure joy. We are reassured that “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death ... mourning, or crying, or pain” (Revelation 21:4).But notice the beginning of that verse. Before entering heaven, believers will shed some tears as well. You see, even Christians will undergo judgment, but not to determine where they will spend eternity. Rather, God will bring to light His children’s pure and impure actions, thoughts, and motives (1 Corinthians 4:5). We’ll no doubt be grieved to see what opportunities were missed and where we failed to act in a godly fashion. Yet the Lord will dry our eyes and bring us into His glory, where we’ll experience no sadness or pain.Once we enter eternity with Him, we will not long for anything. Even if we are able to sense the absence of unsaved loved ones in heaven, there will be no discontent. At that point, our desires will perfectly align with His, and He will fulfill each one—anything we lack will no longer be something we want.Eternity is a long time, and heaven will be indescribably wonderful. Trusting Christ as Savior is the only way to guarantee it will be your destination beyond this life.
I found the points raised interesting and felt I had to respond. My replay was long but contains a summary of my beliefs.
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((The stuff below in italics is a quote from the above newletter))
I missed this newsletter when you sent it but I'm sure it relates to our last conversation and my statement that if the Bible claims that heaven will be a place of overwhelming joy yet I'll be in hell -- how would it be possible for you to find everlasting happiness? The question in the newsletter you sent asked essentially the same thing:
"Some people question whether hell actually exists. They wonder, How could someone in heaven have no sadness while realizing loved ones are suffering eternal punishment?"
I want you to know I do enjoy our conversations and I also know you get frustrated with me and my hardheadedness around this subject. I know you send me these things because you love me but I wish you'd also consider the words you send. Think about what it is saying:
We know that in the afterlife, those who have rejected Jesus will mourn (Matt 13:41-42). But Scripture makes it clear that eternity in Christ’s presence will be pure joy. We are reassured that “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death ... mourning, or crying, or pain” (Revelation 21:4).
One of my issues with the Bible is it is easy to cherry-pick different verses then reform them through the bias of the teller. I think you also know that I reject any claims from Revelation as it was written more than fifty years after the death of Jesus by an unknown man named John who lived on the Island of Patmos. To me, the Book of Revelation is little more than early Christian fan fiction. This book was only included in the finalized Bible (200+ years after Revelation was written) because some sects of early Christianity liked its message which gave it enough votes. Votes! It makes me wonder if JK Rowling lived in 1st century AD that we would also worship the book of Gryffindor and fear of being sent to the evil Dementors. ((Sorry, I know you hate it when I say things like this. I know it isn't productive to meaningful discussion but I can't help myself.))
So let's assume Revelations is true. :P What is the newletter you sent telling us these words mean?
... notice the beginning of that verse. Before entering heaven, believers will shed some tears as well. You see, even Christians will undergo judgment, but not to determine where they will spend eternity. Rather, God will bring to light His children’s pure and impure actions, thoughts, and motives (1 Corinthians 4:5).
We’ll no doubt be grieved to see what opportunities were missed and where we failed to act in a godly fashion. Yet the Lord will dry our eyes and bring us into His glory, where we’ll experience no sadness or pain.
((Sorry again)) --- but before I speak to newsletter's contents, I should also add that part of this argument is from Corinthians, words written by a talented man named Saul who by his own pen admits he never met Jesus in life. Instead, Saul renamed himself Paul after meeting Jesus in death, an act which would draw laughs and possible institutionalization if made it today. However, this claim would very useful in the 1st century AD if you weren't a disciple of Jesus yet you want to take over his fledgling religion. It has always bugged me that fourteen of the books in the New Testament were attributed to Paul meaning more than half the chapters in the Bible were written by a man who isn't relaying Jesus' words nor has he ever heard a single word spoken from Jesus' mouth. Bible scholars now believe some of Paul's fourteen chapters weren't actually written by Paul but written in Paul's name which makes the whole thing even less believable.
But let's assume Corinthians is true. :P
The newsletter has interpreted Paul's words to mean that when you pass into heaven you'll first feel grief and sadness then pass into glory where we'll feel no pain. There will be no discontent and your desires will match perfectly with the Lord as you will lack nothing and feel nothing.
Think about what is being said here -- while I'm being roasted by hellfire, your humanity will slowly be stripped away until nothing is left but a robotic shell. I'm sure you will dispute my interpretation but if there is one fact that I have no doubt, it is that you love me. You are the mother who bandaged my knee and always answered my call when life brought me disappointment. Yet somehow I am to believe that you could stand at ease while one of your children's flesh is slowly roasted on another plane. The only way that is possible is if your memory is muted or your humanity stripped meaning the mother I knew longer exists. I would rather be in hell than be forced to forget you.
I did fear hell at one point in my life. It is hard not to fear hell as a Christian. Sunday school was filled with stories of Jesus' salvation but also the reminder of hell just below the surface. That memory remained even after I stopped believing. I feared to call myself an atheist for years, preferring the word agnostic instead as if that were some sort of protection against eternal damnation. I won't lie - during that time, anger grew in my heart for the church. The church instilled in me a belief in heaven that turned out to be a lie but worse it also threatened me with a nagging fear of hell that wouldn't go away.
I longed to find something to fill that hole and I'm sure you'd say its because I wanted to come back to the church but that is missing the point. I didn't want to forget. I wanted to understand.
I understand why people believe in religion. It's funny to think about the little events you remember from your childhood but I was about six and at a family reunion when I heard one of my uncles say, "Life sucks and then you die". I still remember my shock when he made this comment. I'm sure it sounds silly now but I hadn't faced much adversity in my life at that point beyond the occasional goldfish death and the comment swirled in my head for weeks afterward. How could he think that? Life was awesome! - filled with puppies, school recess, pizza day, and hugs. Obviously, that memory has stuck with me over the years and it's funny to think back about my naivety. Life is hard and for most, it gets harder every year. It's nice to think there's something at the end of all that hardship. It's nice to think there is a heaven.
But I can't. My brain doesn't work that way and I struggled for years to fill the hole the church created in my heart.
I suspect many people that go to church aren't really devout believers. There is more than enough evidence that the Christian Bible was written by men trying to provide answers in an era that didn't have many. Since that time, science has filled in many of the gaps and helped bring humans to a prosperity only dreamed about two thousand years ago. But science doesn't have all the answers.
Here's my theory of the universe:
- In the beginning, there was a Big Bang.
- What started it? We don't know but this event created the universe and in time our solar system. Light shown from the Sun onto the 3rd planet which had the right conditions to sustain life.
- How was that life created? We do not know even though we do understand most of the building blocks. We know everything on Earth is made from stuff created in the heart of stars like our Sun.
- Fast forward four billion years and modern humans appear on the scene. Ten thousand generations later you had me, the latest in a much longer line of evolution.
- You and I are certainly an insignificant blip when compared to the expanse of the universe. Our actions in life will have little impact beyond a few generations, a mere speck in a cosmos that measures time on a scale beyond our understanding.
- In death, our bodies will decay but our atoms, our star stuff, will live on. In that way we are eternal.
We’ll both no doubt be grieved to see what opportunities we missed in life and where we failed to act in a godly fashion.
Yet the Lord will dry our eyes and bring us into His glory, where we’ll experience no sadness or pain.
Regret at the end of life is common and after death, we feel nothing. Aren't we saying similar things?
Once we enter eternity with Him, we will not long for anything. Even if we are able to sense the absence of unsaved loved ones in heaven, there will be no discontent. At that point, our desires will perfectly align with His, and He will fulfill each one—anything we lack will no longer be something we want.
The molecules that made us will exist even after our death. As our bodies fall to decay and the continents continue to move, the elements that were once part of us will mix with each other. In time we will join with every person we ever met, every pet we ever loved, and every piece of property we ever owned. Time and want is meaningless in death and therefore to those that join its embrace, the transformation will be as if it happened overnight. In a few billion years, the sun will run low on hydrogen and when it explodes it will send it's bounty, including us, into the cosmos as the process starts again.
You may find this weird but this concept is what filled the hole in my heart after I left the Christian church. It ended my existential dread and gave me the comfort of meaning we all seek.
Of course, I won't be aware of anything in my heaven because I'm fairly confident human consciousness dies at death. But compare my beliefs to the ones claimed in the email you sent to me. They aren't so different - we both join with the universe and no longer want. The only real difference is the ever-present threat that lives at the core of Christianity. The newsletter you sent ends with it:
Eternity is a long time, and heaven will be indescribably wonderful. Trusting Christ as Savior is the only way to guarantee it will be your destination beyond this life.
I used to be scared of words like this but I am no longer a child and its words no longer control me. I do not fear hell because it doesn't exist and even if it did, I'm not sure I could find comfort in a universe where some of the people I knew are left behind. If I am to be deluded, I prefer to be deluded there is an afterlife that will be spent with ALL my friends and family. That is true under my beliefs.
The bottom line for me is I believe one day we will both have an afterlife among the cosmos and it brings me peace to know you will be there with me.
Sent with all my love,
Your Son
